In this episode of the Being Human is Good For Business Podcast we talk to a leader whose innovative thinking has contributed to the Canadian banking system being the envy of the world. Mike Mercer is the Chief Data and Insurance Officer at the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation (CDIC), a federal crown corporation that provides deposit insurance for potential bank failures.
In this interview Mike discusses how learning about his Enneagram Type was instrumental in helping him grow as a leader.
Mike’s executive coach, Heather Marasse, and her team at Trilogy Effect utilize the Enneagram framework which identifies nine distinct leadership Types. Through this lens, people can become aware of their own automatic patterns of seeing and reacting to situations and are equipped to be more intentional in the way they lead their organizations.
“I'm an Enneagram Type 5, the Detached Observer,” Mike explains. “I remember the first time I was introduced to it, I thought it was just mumbo-jumbo. My natural reaction was to stand back and analyze it from all angles. I was hesitant at first, but it’s been a very helpful tool for me as a leader, as a professional, and as a person to understand my leadership style, personality and even my blind spots.”
Enneagram for team building
The Enneagram system allows Mike and his team the opportunity to get to know one another better as each of them explores their own core motivations and inherent gifts as leaders.
Heather explains: “We work with Mike and his team to initiate important conversations to clarify roles and build relationships. It helps people get to know each other better and learn about how each of them likes to work. They learn how each other tends to operate, what they need, how they work under stress and how to help one another. These sessions are always quite informal, and these days we hold them virtually via Zoom.”
In this podcast episode Mike shares his leadership journey and talks about CDIC’s unique work culture and how it differs from many financial and banking organizations. He explains how the pandemic is changing the workplace and how it is influencing his leadership style. Listen and learn about:
What the future of work post pandemic looks like
How the Enneagram Type 5s are as leaders
Why CDIC has so many women in leadership roles
What is the Enneagram framework’s role in leadership development?
Listen to the podcast here:
Links to helpful resources and information about some of the tools and concepts mentioned on the show:
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Machine Generated Transcript
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Being Human Is Good For Business Podcast with CDIC’s Mike Mercer.
Mike Mercer: What typically gets someone to an executive table or a senior leadership position is generally their competence within a subject matter. They have been very successful at what they do, but that is not going to contribute, necessarily, into making you successful as a leader.
Voice Over: Welcome to the Being Human is Good for Business podcast. In each episode, the Leadership Development Experts at Trilogy Effect explore how the process of self-discovery unleashes potential in us all. Now here's your host Sherrilynne Starkie.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Hello, I'm Sherryilynne Starkie. Welcome to the Being Human is Good for Business podcast. Today I am joined by, Leadership Development Expert, Heather Marasse, she’s the Managing Partner at Trilogy Effect.
We are welcoming as our guest, a leader whose innovative thinking has made the Canadian banking system the envy of the world, Mike Mercer. He is the Chief Data and Insurance officer at the Canada deposit insurance corporation.
Welcome to the show, both of you.
Heather Marasse: Thank you.
Mike Mercer: Thank you, great to be here.
Sherrilynne Starkie: I am so glad that you could join us. Mike, could you start by telling us a little bit about your career background?
Mike Mercer: Yeah sure. So, my career, which I guess stretches back over 20 years now, has been in financial services. I started working in a bank straight out of university in Australia, which is where I'm originally from.
I've worked in financial institutions within Australia, within the UK, then I moved to Canada in 2005, and most recently I've been with CDIC, which is the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, a federal Crown Corporation established in1967 to insure the deposits of Canadians at federally financial regulated institutions.
So, within my journey at CDIC and I've been here for 13 years now, I've seen all aspects of our business, and currently as the Chief Data and Insurance Officer, which means that I have oversight of our insurance operations and technology programs. That’s me in a nutshell.
Sherrilynne Starkie: That sounds like a pretty broad brief, actually being ITN insurance altogether. I don’t think I’ve every met anybody who has that kind of a combination of area of responsibility.
Mike Mercer: Well, we're a fairly small organization. We're around 200 people and I've had the pleasure of overseeing both our risk and our membership operations dealing with a problem financial institutions, particularly coming out of the financial crisis in 2008. So, really as we think about insurance and technology, they’re really heavily dependent now, and really financial services is purely focused on digital offerings to clients. So I think having those two pieces together at CDIC makes a lot of sense for us.
Sherrilynne Starkie: So over the past year all of us have changed how we work.
Well, most of us, I should say, have changed how we work, a lot of people working from home and having teams geographically dispersed. So what have you learned about leadership over the past yea, since the beginning of the pandemic?
Mike Mercer: Well a tremendous amount. I think making the pivot to work from home, like many organizations have done and really it's essentially 12 months since we took our whole organization into a work from home mode. I was just reflecting on how we're so used to using our webcams and our video meetings. I think I maybe had one on my desk for a number of years prior to the pandemic and never used it. We were quite a, an office bound organization and to move the whole organization to work from home was quite something and I would say it's has been successful in terms of ensuring that we keep delivering on our mandate for Canadians in the financial system.
I think from a leadership aspect, it's really brought home the people element of what we do, because I think we all appreciate that we come from different backgrounds, we have personal lives, different life situations, but we came together in the office to work for those, let's call it nine to five, or whatever kind of general office period was. Then people, faded back into their personal lives and really were in a situation where people are blending the two and so you’re seeing all aspects of who we are as people. That matters from a leadership perspective in terms of making sure there's a safe environment for people to bring their best selves to work and to be flexible between the work and the home situation and, as a leader, to provide people that flexibility. To provide the ability to articulate where they're at and how they're doing and knowing that can change day to day, week to week as we see these kinds of very unprecedented events unfold.
Heather Marasse: What are some of the things, I'm curious, that you have either guided people towards or people have shared with you that are helpful to address the mental health aspect? I think that's been a real key issue for people as this pandemic has just been so prolonged and there's still no clear end really in sight. We can kind of see it now, but it’s not clear exactly when we’re going to, if ever get back to the office in the way we used to.
Mike Mercer: Yeah, it's a great question Heather. I think there's, firstly, from an organizational perspective, we've put a lot of effort into mental health awareness into the availability of programs in terms of additional help for people, whether it’s accessing those services; whether it's additional time off; whether it's wellness allowance in terms of being able to invest in things that'll help them stay active or stay engaged or look after their personal wellness. So those are things that are, organizationally available.
I think as the more ‘people’ element is concerned, it’s just opening up that conversation and trying to create a safe space where people will feel open to sharing where they’re at and that includes me sharing my journey and how I'm feeling and being able to bring a very personal relationship to the interactions, that you have. I’ve worked with you, Heather, for a number of years and you know, that's something that doesn't come as naturally to me as it does to others. So, I think that's been helpful in recognizing those individuals that aren't as used to sharing those aspects of their life or, or where they’re at.
I think it's also important to understand that some people don't want to share, and they want to keep a very clear boundary between work and their personal environment and that's fine too. So, I think it's about those conversations that help you understand where individuals are at, what they're comfortable with sharing and providing that space that, when they are ready to share, then you're there to listen and help.
Heather Marasse: Yeah.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Do you think that this experience has changed how you will continue to lead in the future even ifwe do go back to normal?
Mike Mercer: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I think this is going to shape a lot of what we think about in the future of work, not only in our organization, but in many others. It's clear that work-life balance, having the ability to adapt work around your personal circumstances; I think it’s going to continue to gain traction and that’s what we’re hearing from people.
They want that flexibility to work when it suits them, to be clear on what they want to achieve and to balance those two aspects. I think in terms of my leadership style, prior to the pandemic, I put a great deal of influence on being active around the office, being mobile, visible, checking in on teams, travelling to the different offices that we have. This does change things, it's unlikely that I'll be visiting people's houses to check in on them but, utilizing the technology and tools and having a hybrid workforce that's partly at home and partly in the office, I think is going to bring a new dimension.
I don't think we've totally figured out how that's going to work. I'm sure we can learn from organizations that have more practice and in operating in those environments. But, I think the underlying point is that the future of work is going to be different for our organization, as it is with many.
It’s going to change the types of leadership styles that we're going to need to develop. One of the other learnings on that is an understanding that leaders don't have the crystal ball and the perfect vision and being okay to communicate to staff that there is a lot of uncertainty. We can set certain milestones and expectations of what we want to achieve and how we want to guide employees. Whether it's return to work or other activities, except that it may not pan out that way. So we'll adapt and we'll communicate and we'll listen and get that feedback and that it's a constant period of adaptation to move forward.
Sherrilynne Starkie: So Mike, you've been working with Heather for a long time, but I'm kind of curious about, since the beginning of the pandemic and all this uncertainty, does this mean that you and Heather are working more closely together as you've worked through issue or is it situation normal? How has that been?
Mike Mercer: Yeah. I think Heather, I would say we've been working together maybe for six years close to that and I took up an executive role here in CDIC
in 2015. Heather had worked with my prior boss, our CEO at the time and this was my first engagement into a kind of a more intensive coaching relationship and I took huge benefits from that. So, I would say over the last eighteen months or year we've been at a pretty steady pace, which has really helped me check in and have discussions like this with Heather to bounce around leadership ideas and things like that. So I think if we were certainly more intense early on in the developmental phase, but really lately it's focused on adjustment and adaptation and reflection on the leadership journey over the last over the last 12 months during the pandemic.
Heather Marasse: Yeah. Basically taking a look again, under no delusion or illusion that we have any certainty, but looking forward to see where does Mike want to be with his organization in the next 12 months. Then looking at what are the things that you want to really focus on for your own development and growth and tap into what strengths you have and make sure we're using them to their fullest leverage.
So that is pretty typical of a longer-term executive coaching engagement. Where the first year is more intensive and then you move into more of regular check-ins and you get to know each other, you learn how to work together. Every engagement is different.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Yeah, so the thing that is a common theme in your work, Heather, is the use of the Enneagram Framework. So Mike, how has learning about the Enneagram helped you as a leader.
Mike Mercer: Well, I think it's a bit ironic that, I'm, under the Enneagram a Type Five, so Detached Observer. So I remember the first time Heather introduced it, , I think I used the term mumbo-jumbo.
I think there was a natural reaction to want to stand back from it and say, what is this and analyze it from all angles and a bit like a horoscope. I made sure I read every aspect of it just to make sure that no matter which category I fell in, it would speak to me.
I think there was a hesitancy upfront which I think Heather and I have joked about since, but it has been a very helpful tool for me to stand back from myself, as a, as a leader, as a professional, as a person to really understand elements of your leadership style and personality and what I would call blind spots, things you just don't realize.
So, it's finally through looking at the wide gambit of the Enneagram and the nine different elements of it and then reflecting on those you work with, and those you interact with that, you understand your strengths and weaknesses as a leader. So, as a tool to just launch the conversation, to have that period of reflection, I think it's been really instrumental in helping me along.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Your broader team has also been involved with the Enneagram. How has it improved your collaboration and teamwork?
Mike Mercer: I think it's that simple point of just understanding the reference points and where people come from. I think if you have a close working relationship with a colleague you can certainly understand strengths and weaknesses, but this really helps frame and understand how those strengths and weaknesses can mesh with your own individual style.
I found it's been really refreshing to understand where the points of friction will come from. There is just natural friction in terms of how two individuals relate to each other, but it really just helps provide that foundation, you can stand back, promote, you can be a little bit objective, you can laugh about it. You can kind of realize, hey, look, when I'm acting like this, you can see where when I start to kind of go below the line into my weaknesses or elements that drag me down in my behaviour, lift me back up and recognize it. It just takes the apprehension away from being able to provide that candid feedback to each other, to say, hey, look, you know, it's okay. I can understand why you’re behaving in such a way, but it's not getting us where we need to be. I just think it's wonderful to have those conversations particularly upfront in a working relationship or as you're trying to establish it as I've done with Heather and some of my counterparts and colleagues in our organization. It’s better to realize those ahead of time than to be stuck in the moment where bad things can happen.
Sherrilynne Starkie: So, how does it work when someone new comes on your team, someone that's just new to the organization. Do you Enneagram type them as part of their induction?
Mike Mercer: I would say no, it's an organic process. What I've tended to do and I've done through a couple of restructurings we've done, within the organization, whenever I've formed a leadership team or a new leadership team, Heather has helped and discussed, with those key leaders around just exploring that, in a very organic way, and just using it as a tool to help understand leadership styles. It helps me explain myself and the things that I value and it's just another part of the getting to know you relationship that I think is important when you've got senior leaders that you depend on and critical team members that are a part of our success at CDIC.
One key thing I've learned, certainly through Heather, and through experiences, never impose things like Enneagrams, or others, onto someone. It's an organic process for them to explain their leadership style and what they value and what they want to get out of the relationship.
Sherrilynne Starkie: I noticed you have a lot of women on your leadership team, and that's not typical of the finance industry. So, you know, what's that all about?
Mike Mercer: Sure, you know, you're right. I think when I look at our executive team at CDIC it's 75% women. I think the first thing to say is they're just incredibly talented and I've had the pleasure of working with them for many years, some of them. They’ve just done tremendously well, they’re exceptional
individuals that bring so much to our organization and contribute to the broader, stability in the system here. I think there is, throughout the reorganization, that we did last year, a real focus from our CEO on trying to flatten out the organization and change the cultural leadership model. It’s allowed him to really bring that talent to the table and it just it's great to be part of this leadership group. It's young and vibrant and I'm really enjoying being a part of it.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Heather, I wonder if you could, for our listeners, who don’t know what the Enneagram is, if you could just give us a high level overview of what the Enneagram framework is. Then maybe tell us a little bit about these, these Enneagram Fives, these Detached Observers, what is a typical of these profiles?
Heather Marasse: Okay sure. The Enneagram is a framework and really a developmental system that explores nine different archetypes of human being, if you like, and in particular around the patterns of thinking, feeling and acting. Nine different patterns and what's useful about it, there are many things, but what's useful about it is that it points to how our patterns of thinking, feeling and acting can actually mask who we really are. Said another way, they’re nine different
coping strategies that we bring into the world when we're afraid and when we're feeling threatened and we're worried for our survival. The strange part about all of this is that usually at, as an adult, you're seldom in a survival mode, you're seldom in that kind of threat.
So for the most part, we are wearing our personality pretty lightly. I could be any of the nine types, but sometimes stress can have our ego structure start to kick in and feel threatened. That’s when the machinery around those thinking, feeling and acting patterns start to kick in and we don't notice it's kicking in often. Others
may notice it about us, but we may not, until later we might get a gentle or not so gentle reminder about what we just did. So, it's useful to start to look at those patterns and determine which one is my favourite, which is the go-to. Which is which one favours me the most because it's not really a conscious choice. Once we start to understand the inner landscape that starts kicking in under stress, we can start catching ourselves in the act.
That catching process allows us to make sometimes a different choice about what we're going to do next versus being victim or almost a hostage of the patterning that's there. So the Enneagram Type Five, if I could say one word that could capture the quality around it, it's enigmatic. Type Five leaders are often a bit enigmatic, a little bit mysterious, a little hard to pin down.
They, as Mike has said, they're sometimes called the Detached Observer or the Investigator. They're a type that is very intellectual and their deepest fear actually is of not being competent, I don't know how to make my way in the world. So my core driving desire is to learn things, is to gather knowledge and master, whatever is in front of me, or I need to master it so that I can feel secure and safe in my environment.
So it requires a great deal of curiosity and deep rigorous thinking and mental modeling for me to put the world together, because I'm just innately curious about what’s going on around me and what's my part in it and how can I feel safe here. So there is this intense cerebral kind of energy that you’ll notice around a Type Five. There is an intense curiosity, but there’s also an intense holding back, because they're holding back to observe. So even though they may be kind of quiet and not necessarily pushing themselves out into the middle of things, there's an intensity to their energy that can feel quite palpable.
And so often when there's a Type Five leader in a, in an organization, sometimes they're a little hard to spot. They can be a little hard to find because they might be off somewhere thinking about things, putting things together, coming up with the next master plan on something.
They don't need a lot, they're minimalistic in their needs. They try and maintain a minimal need for much, because that's another way of feeling safe. That minimalistic nature sometimes can have them pulling away from the very people who could be on their team, but they don't notice that because it doesn't occur to them to draw others in. So, I think we can let Mike talk a little more about some of areas where it just didn't occur for him, that he should maybe pay attention to a few things as a leader, because he was just doing his job. Right?
Sherrilynne Starkie: So I could see Mike that you're nodding your head to all this especially the part about pulling back. Would you like to reflect on that? Do you see any of these behaviours in your own leadership?
Mike Mercer: Yes, absolutely. You know, I think and Heather and I have discussed it a lot. I think that the mental models and one of the great strengths that, as a Type Five, or just part of my makeup, is being able to tackle complex topics and try to simplify them, set a plan, set a vision and I think that’s one of the elements that's helped me be successful in my career. But, once that vision is set and communicated the five can then stand back and just let others kind of get on with the work. I remember reflecting on a 360 conversation at the time and team members coming to me and saying we really don’t know what you think of this Mike, like we don’t hear you, we don’t see you, and we just want to know we’re doing a great job. In my view I was a little shocked because like, you are doing fantastic job, you're doing so well and I don't need to come and see you and talk to you.
It's just that natural sense of, mentally, I'm so thrilled with how the team is doing it's given me the license to pull back and focus on other things, but at the same time as those individuals want to know that they're on the right track, that they have that safe space to experiment and were getting that championing being, and cheerleading that gives them their energy, which maybe energy that I don't particularly need myself.
So those are what I call the blind spots and where the Enneagram has been really useful to adapt your leadership style. It's not that you're doing something wrong, it’s just there’s more you can add to the flavour that you bring that really brings out the best in others and I think that’s really what leadership is about.
Heather Marasse: One of Mike's colleagues told him once and I happened to be there and I just thought it was such a great expression “every now and then Mike, I could use a little confetti.”
Sherrilynne Starkie: So I think Mike actually talked a little bit about his organization's approach to teamwork and creating high performance teams. What is the role that you and your team play in that Heather?
Heather Marasse: Well, it depends, you know, every organization is different and every leader is different. Mike has brought us in just very lightly, a light touch if you like, because, that would be very consistent with the Type Five leader actually, as I think about this, where there's kind of a minimal need, but he'd like to get a conversation started and work on clarification of roles and relationships.
It's also an opportunity for Mike to get to know people and for people to get to know Mike because, like I mentioned, there is kind of a curiosity sometimes around the Type Five leader.
So in Mike's case, that's what we've done. He's brought me in a couple of times to work with his senior people and just explore who are we, how do we like to work, what is my typical operating style. What do I need from you? What do you
need from me? What happens with me typically under stress and what to watch out for and how you can help me sort through it? So it's quite informal and Mike's team was one of the first I worked with, in the move that we have had to make at Trilogy Effect, into virtual team-based work because, up until now we were always using Zoom for coaching. It’s a very natural platform, even before COVID hit, but we liked to do our team-based work in person. It's an opportunity to share space and be physically in the same room. There's just some something magical that happens when you could have that time together and that's just not been possible.
So we had to adapt as well and Mike trusted us enough to bring us in, in the early days of our work, in a team-based environment over video and it was great. We learned together what worked. I mean, I learned don't use many slides, keep lots of faces on the screen and be less ambitious with agendas and encourage dialogue.
I think I learned the same thing everybody else is learning, but it was an important opportunity for us to innovate. I actually really appreciate that Mike trusted us enough to let us work together in that way. I was very uncertain as to how it was going to work.
Mike Mercer: Yeah, it's certainly a period of adaptation and I think it worked pretty well. I think it helps that the team that we gathered is an easy group to talk to and quite happy to share their experiences and journey. I think that's part of what attracted me to them and them joining my team and I think the tools that we have virtually, offer up some other abilities to get instant feedback and to have that collaboration. I think we’re just really touching the surface of maybe what some of those tools can add to the conversation.
Heather Marasse: Mike, what’s the most important lesson that you’ve learned about leadership?
Mike Mercer: Well, I think it's probably an easy answer and maybe one you're heard before, but it's, it's about people. That leadership is less about work and more about people and I think when I look back on, on my career the work fades away. You don't remember necessarily individual elements, but I remember quite clearly the relationships, the missed opportunities, the ones that didn't go the way I'd like, the ones that really thrived and succeeded and those stick with you.
I reflect on how much the relationships I have at work impact me outside of work. You know, the things that keep you up at night, the things that you're contemplating over the weekend and, and knowing that there's others out there that I interact with that are thinking about me. You know, the demands that I’ve asked of them, they're just conversations that we've had. Your leadership impact carries far beyond the work that has to be delivered, on a Monday or Friday that you need to do. So that can be quite an overwhelming relationship and expectation.
So it is worth, I think, part of your time investing in what that means and I don't think we're always well-equipped. I don't think I learned that at university and certainly didn't get access to the type of programs and training and relationships like I have with Heather, earlier in my career and I probably would have benefited tremendously from that. So I think there's a huge aspect that makes us successful as professionals that we can tap into on the people dynamic and the human being aspect to leadership and to the workplace. What typically gets someone to an executive table or, a senior leadership position is generally their competence within a subject matter. They’ve been very successful at what they
do but, that is not going to contribute necessarily to making you successful as a leader. When you're managing egos, when you're managing a group of individuals who bring their own inner range of competency and behaviours to the table.
It’s almost a whole different set of skills that you have to explore and understand. I think, it's bringing a great deal of vulnerability to that to say I'm going to have to explore this and every conversation is going to be different. There, isn't going to be, as you said, the model that you take to every individual. It's trying to get there one conversation at a time with the understanding that you're going to get it wrong some other time and that's okay and accept that. I think by demonstrating that, it helps others to relax and enter that conversation.
Sherrilynne Starkie: Thank you to CDIC’s Chief Data and Insurance Officer Mike Mercer for joining us on today's show, thanks Mike, and thank you to all you leaders who out there who are our listeners. Please see the show notes for links to news and information and resources, about some of the tools that we discussed on today's podcast. Please make sure that you never miss an episode subscribe anywhere that you get your podcasts and please leave a rating or review or recommend us to friends and family who want to become better, stronger, more effective leaders. I'm your host, Sherrilynne Starkie and this is the Being Human is Good for Business podcast.