We’ve all heard the expression about following your heart but when it comes to leading others, this can be tricky. Originally published almost two years ago, this show is full of leadership insights including how trust is the gateway to tapping the potential of others.
In this episode of the Being Human is Good For Business Podcast, we learn about leaders who rely on their hearts to guide them.
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This group includes Enneagram Types 2, 3 and 4, all of whom tend to have attention seeking motivations, according to Trilogy Effect Partner Mary Beth Sawicki.
She explains, “Known as heart-centered or feeling-centered, these leaders want to be seen the way they want to be seen. In a business context these are the leaders who form strong personal connections and prioritize relationships. Their attention is often focused on human systems over business systems. They see the world through a lens that focuses on the personal.”
The Trilogy Effect team uses the Enneagram framework to help leaders grow through self-awareness and to surface untapped potential in their teams. The Enneagram comprises nine distinct personality Types in groups of three, based on core motivations, specific strengths and liabilities. See our last episode to learn about instinctive center leaders.
On today’s show, Mary Beth is joined by Trilogy Effect Partners Heather Marasse and Wendy Appel. Together, these leadership development experts explore:
Enneagram Type 2s tend to lead by helping and supporting others.
Enneagram Type 3s tend to lead by being the very best performers and achievers.
Enneagram Type 4s tend to be authentic and compassionate as leaders.
Listen for:
To understand your emotions to become the best leader you can be.
Strategies for leading heart-centered team members.
Insights on why trust is the gateway to potential.
Resources:
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Machine Generated Transcript
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Being Human Is Good for Business Episode 31
[00:00:00] Sherrilynne: Hi, it's Sherrilynne here. We've all heard the expression about following your heart, but when it comes to leading others, this can be a bit tricky. In today's episode of the being human is good for business podcast. The leadership development experts at trilogy effect share advice and practical tips for people who lead from the heart center of intelligence.
This includes Enneagram types, two, three, and four. Originally published almost two years ago. Now this show is full of leadership insights, including how trust is the gateway to tapping the potential of others. Enjoy.
[00:00:38] Voice Over: Welcome to the Being Human is Good for Business podcast. In each episode, the leadership development experts at Trilogy Effect explore how the process of self-discovery unleashes potential in us all. Now here's your host Sherrilynne Starkie
[00:01:04] Sherrilynne Starkie: hello on your host, Sherrilynne Starkie welcome to the Being Human Is Good for Business podcast.
I am delighted to welcome you to our regular chat with the leadership development experts at Trilogy Effect so we've been exploring the various Enneagram types of the last couple of episodes and learning about how certain personality types have common strengths. And I looks, and that they are grouped by.
So we've already learned about the instinctive center. And so please check out that episode. It's our last episode, and I will put a link in the show notes here so that you can easily find it. But today we're going to look at the feeling center or the heart center. So this includes Enneagram types, two, three, and four, and Trilogy Effect partner.
Marybeth's Sawicki. Welcome to the show. Can you please tell us about the common assets and liabilities of
[00:01:54] Mary Beth Sawicki: heart center.
I would love to. So, as you mentioned, the heart center or the feeling center it's types, two, three, and four. And so what these types have in common is they are seeking attention. And they go about it in different ways, but essentially our two types, two, three, and four friends want to be seen the way they want to be seen.
So, in a business context, our heart center friends are the ones who are folks who connect and relate in a business context. Their attention will often be on the human systems versus the business systems and the lens that twos, threes and fours view the world through is a focus on the. It's how am I relating to the people around me?
And we'll get into some of the liabilities in more detail, but just briefly they can over identify with their emotions, particularly the types twosand fours. If you look at the results versus relationship, spectrum twos and fours will often be on the relationship and of the spectrum. And we'll sometimes compromise results in order to be in relationship with people and type threes will often be on the results and of that spectrum and the relationship piece can drop out.
So those are just a couple of the liabilities for our heart-centered.
[00:03:17] Sherrilynne Starkie: Trilogy Effect Partner Wendy Appel is the author of Inside Out Enneagram the game-changing guide for leaders, Wendy, tell us about the Enneagram two, please also known as the helper or the pleaser. How do these people tend to lead?
[00:03:32] Wendy Appel: Yeah, sometimes we call type two, the helper, and sometimes we call type two, the people pleaser and part of how they lead is through helping others
be successful. So, Mary Beth was sticking your tongue out at me because she identifies as type two. So Mary bad of the Trilogy Effect here, holds the ground for the heart center, the feeling center of the Enneagram in our trilogy, and keeps us focused on relationships.
And Mary Beth, like other twos are very attuned to others, their attention. Is out on others and they are tuned to other's needs. Others wants others, likes others, dislikes others, feelings and emotions,
[00:04:21] Heather Marasse: but they're highly attuned. There was, I call Mary Beth our tuning fork.
[00:04:28] Wendy Appel: And, and so it's one of their super powers .
And when they really become much more self aware and step into their power, they often start to lead from the front. So
[00:04:40] Sherrilynne Starkie: can you give us some examples of famous people that we know that would present as an Enneagram type two?
[00:04:48] Wendy Appel: Okay. Present and often there's argument on which side she falls, but Oprah Winfrey Oh, yes is a potential exemplar of type two.
So sometimes people see her as a two. Sometimes people see her as the three. It's unclear, but she all can often present as a type two, she's out there and the audience, she's very caring. She's bringing people forward. Dr. Phil, dr. Oz. She constantly is promoting other people, Gail her best friend, she's very warm and embracing and type twos are often, pretty
warm, and embracing of. of others
when
[00:05:28] Heather Marasse: Heather, and Mary Beth and I are.
[00:05:31] Wendy Appel: Working with organizations, we're in the room with clients, Marybeth's often work in the back channels, tuning into the individuals , she's noticing what's happening with other people. She's kind of, on breaks when she sees somebody she think proceeds is having a hard time.
She'll go connect with them. Mary Beth is the glue that holds Heather and and I together. She definitely, and, and not all type twos are identical. They operate in different ways, but this is an example of some of the gifts of type twos and where their focus of attention goes on.
Other people in our relationship. So the, the flip side to that, right? Because we talked about what their assets or liabilities are. They lose tension, focus on themselves and their own needs and their own wants and caring for themselves. What's going on underneath the surface is that they maintain their sense of self and identity, and esteem through, getting appreciation and attention from others for their good deeds.
So each type has a strategy like this. And, and so for type twos, the path forward is to claim their own power step out front, not always be the support person behind the scenes and to take care of their own needs and wants their own health, whatever that is. It doesn't mean they can't also look out for others, but it's disproportionate.
[00:07:02] Heather Marasse: Yeah, this is the one that, it's like the airplane, the flight attendant, when they're using the oxygen mask, emergency procedures, it's the oxygen mask on yourself before helping those who you're with. So sometimes
[00:07:19] Wendy Appel: the type two is
[00:07:20] Heather Marasse: so busy with the mask on the person beside them that they forget they need oxygen to.
And actually it's. Greater good that when we see a healthy type two, who's really taking care of their needs because they have such a pure and generous heart. Usually they're taking care of all of the needs. Sometimes people think that the type two is not your archetypical leader, but in fact, they are fantastic leaders and we've seen them run giant global businesses.
And what makes them successful is their attention on. Their resources, the people who work for them and the people who worked for their people and how they're able to structure and guide the workflow to support people's gifts. And they can get the best out of an organization simply by using their gift of attunement, to what people are bringing to the party.
[00:08:19] Wendy Appel: That's getting work done through others in a really caring, but with a really caring way, it's not. It's not objectifying others.
[00:08:27] Heather Marasse: Oh, that's a really good point. Yeah. It's people feel supported by their leader. If, when they're a type two leader, they feel challenged because they can also be very direct because they are so attuned to you.
They know what's going on in you. And even when they're direct, do you feel supported by. I think, I think a phrase might be fiercely loving, fairly good. We've already been hearing
[00:08:58] Sherrilynne Starkie: from Heather Marasse . She is the managing partner of Trilogy Effect welcome to the show. Heather, I'd like to take this opportunity to formally introduce you.
Heather's here to talk to us a little bit about the Enneagram type three, also known as the achiever. So Heather tell us as a leader. Who is this
[00:09:18] Heather Marasse: Enneagram type three? That's a great lead in to the type three, who am I? Most type threes would be stopped in their tracks if they really had to answer that question because the type three is a very externally focused type.
They are focused on producing and performing because if you remember, this is the center that is looking for attendance. And so the way the type three gets your attention is by being the best by figuring out what is valued out here in this situation. And especially if I know what, what is needed out there, I will prepare, do my homework practice, practice, practice, so that when.
The time comes. I am going to perform to the utmost and I will be the best at it. I will outshine everybody. That is the attention I'm seeking and I work really hard at getting it. And so what is, the asset here of the type three leader is that they have this just it's Wendy would call it their super power is getting.
A sense of what's valued by others. And they are like chameleons at being able to provide it. So they're able to, oh, you value this. I can be that. I can produce that for you. They are naturals at marketing and it's sales and PR. They are just amazing at positioning and communicating. They have just this knack.
I always say I have three envy. I wish I were a type three. Cause it looks so darn good on them. These are the people that can always read the room. Exactly. They walk in and it's done. They perform, and they are the best
[00:11:10] Wendy Appel: three walks in the room. It's like itch
[00:11:15] Heather Marasse: and it just really is. And. What happens like the liability? When I, if I am a type three, the liability is I start to equate my inherent intrinsic value with whatever others are mirroring back to me. So this is where it gets to be a bit of, a tragic cycle of, I am busy performing to the outer world and I lose a sense of who I am.
And when I stopped, because I'm exhausted from all my performing, I come. Against this wondering, who am I in here? What, what's a value in here. If I'm not performing and producing and delivering, then what good am I? And so you get up close and personal with this sense of deficiency, this, like, I don't know who I am.
And why would anybody want to be with this because of the.
[00:12:09] Sherrilynne Starkie: Yeah. We often hear people talk about imposter syndrome is that's
[00:12:13] Heather Marasse: kind of what you're talking about. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, every type has that, but the classic stereotypical example would be with the type three and I I've worked.
They're drawn to business. They're natural leaders. So we've all worked with many type threes. But I remember working with one years ago where we were having a coaching session and he said to me, I've got it all. I've got the house, I've got the job. I've got the family, I've got the toys. And yet, why do I feel so empty inside?
Just wondering what's what's going on in my life here. So the other, if you turn that to what the gift is, again, of the type three, when a type three gets in touch with that, and really has some compassion for themselves, what starts to emerge is this beautiful authenticity. This beautiful truth telling, because again, they're in the heart center.
So they're able to connect with the truth of what's going on about themselves. They're willing to be personal and it can really bring out some authentic, real life-changing communication and conversation around them. And
[00:13:22] Wendy Appel: all three are we keep saying they're in the heart center and for the, and so you can hear the theme as we're going through.
And for the three, they do lose contact with their own hearts desire. And, what I wanted to just tag back to when Mary Beth was introducing the heart center, is that all three of these types have a, one of their big driver is,
[00:13:46] Heather Marasse: am I valuable or how do I prove
[00:13:48] Wendy Appel: my value? How do I prove my worth? How
[00:13:51] Heather Marasse: do I prove that I'm
[00:13:52] Wendy Appel: worthy?
And so for type three, It's by achieving it's by being the best and then getting the accolades for that. And then, and then suddenly deriving their sense of value from that. And as Heather said, what's mirrored back to them, and replied to it's being appreciated by others. For all that I do for them and for being attuned to them and for meeting their emotional needs and being caring and loving.
And therefore it gives me that mirroring that I need to feel lovable
[00:14:26] Heather Marasse: and value. These people are the classic workaholics. Although all night types can be workaholics. Let's face it. But when they start getting tired, when they're performing, performing, and performing without rest, it's like your experiences.
One of I'd like to connect with the person behind the mask. Cause I did see that person once and like, it was beautiful. And and that's the only thing we see. I mean, Mary Beth and I, we. Several type three leaders together. And what's always interesting to us is when they stop striving and trying to, achieve what starts showing up around them is how much they're able to bring out the best in others.
They are natural developers of people. They're very talented at seeing people's potential, coaching them, bringing out the best, I mean, around a healthy type three, you feel like you are something special. . The
[00:15:27] Mary Beth Sawicki: true gift in the three. I mean, they are inherently connected to their own gifts and talents. And when they're in that kind of average level of awareness, not at their best, there's a lot of focus on that and developing themselves and achieving, achieving, achieving, and seeking that admiration.
And to Heather's point when they're really healthy, they're so attuned to what other people's gifts and talents are, and they really want, they support them in developing those. It's really, it's a beautiful aspect of the.
[00:15:55] Heather Marasse: Type three leader, knows that by developing their people is going to be good for their business.
We work with a lot of them.
[00:16:05] Mary Beth Sawicki: And finally,
[00:16:05] Sherrilynne Starkie: let's talk about the Enneagram type for the individualist. You're going to have tell us who these people are and what is it like
[00:16:12] Mary Beth Sawicki: when they tend to be like, Okay. For our type fours, the individualists, we often joke that we don't see them very often in corporate captivity.
It's not entirely true, will all over organizations, but these folks are
[00:16:25] Heather Marasse: so,
[00:16:26] Mary Beth Sawicki: Creative and don't tend to like to be so constrained that they're a little more rare in some of the, organizations where we work, but our type four leaders, when we do see them, they're incredibly self aware. . Like the type three, there's an authenticity that they have.
They almost, can't not be . Authentic. They, are very attuned to their own emotions, to other folks, emotions, very sensitive and compassionate types. There's a real depth to the type for, if I know I'm, if I'm with one of my type four friends or type four clients, I'm not talking about the.
They're just not interested in the weather or whatever sports game. They're, they're really wanting to connect on a human level with whoever they're talking to and really see that person. And they're gifted at seeing other people and what's going on for them. There's an attention to beauty with the type four.
So we'll often see them in design and, marketing and, and they have great. Great eye and aesthetic. Some of their
[00:17:29] Heather Marasse: liabilities,
[00:17:31] Mary Beth Sawicki: the type four leaders they can. Over identify with their emotions. So instead of, I'm feeling sad today or I'm feeling depressed today, it's I am depressed. I am sad.
And, someone I used to work with, she's not a type four, but she had a very strong four wing and she did. Jokes sometimes and just, indulge herself and say, I'm just going to draw a bath with my emotions and have a good long soak in them. And I can put up with the type they can, they can overindulge that side.
And they can also, it's an interesting thing. They want attention, but they also withdraw. So there's this aspect of almost withdrawing to get attention. Like who's going to come follow me and find me Hasting. Hidden in. And it can also be here, a little moody little temperamental, because again, like the emotions, they're very, they embrace the full spectrum of emotions.
The, what other people might consider to be, ugly or quote unquote bad. I'm making air bunnies. Nobody can see that. But for us, it's, bring it all. I want it all. I'm good with it all. And sometimes can, again, overindulge in that. But really, at their best, incredibly attuned and sensitive and kind and aware of the gifts of the people around them and, making sure that the people in the business are, , how do I want to put
[00:19:01] Heather Marasse: this being attended to?
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And also they long and look. Long for, and look for creativity, creative outlet and expression. So you see them, they do not settle for less than something that is an authentic expression of their creativity. And we see this with our type four clients where they're in roles that they end up being.
They shine in the creative side of things. Communication and advertising and packaging and designed it just, they think from this design, the, the purity of the looking for the expression that just captures the essence of what it is they're working on and whatever
[00:19:48] Mary Beth Sawicki: role they're in, there'll be creative about it.
Like you can find a type four accountant, which, some of us might not think is the most creative. Creative accountants can be very
[00:19:56] Heather Marasse: creative and dangerous, but lawyers I've known several type four lawyers.
[00:20:04] Wendy Appel: I know Dr. who are check for, people who own yoga studios. I mean, they can be in any profession, but it's what they bring to it.
And one of the things they bring to wherever they go. That relates to what Heather and Mary about they're saying, which is this
[00:20:20] Heather Marasse: I have to be authentic no
[00:20:21] Wendy Appel: matter what, is significance and meaning. And in a corporate setting, they're going to be constantly reorienting to the mission. Like why are we in this together?
And bringing people back to the. And with that and with their work, even though they're not a perfectionist, as in Type One , they have a very strong connection to, to perfectionism. They bring a certain aesthetic perfectionism to whatever they do and how they show up, and actually. Focused on their own flaws, continually trying to, perfect themselves similarly to a type one, but not the same, but there's a similar focused on how they're flawed.
[00:21:06] Sherrilynne Starkie: Is there an example of someone famous that's that you think presents as a type four?
[00:21:12] Mary Beth Sawicki: I think, Prince would probably be kind of a home type for. Share. It might be another type four. What do my partners think?
[00:21:25] Wendy Appel: I agree, I agree that they both present that way and you can see, they, they point to the aesthetic quality, they point to the creative quality, they point to the perfectionistic quality.
I mean, prince was really quite known as a perfectionist in his work. And you can, somebody like Nureyev. Also, some people think that Steve jobs may have been yeah,
[00:21:50] Heather Marasse: he's he's who comes to mind for me from the business world. I mean, who knows, but when I listened to his authorized biography, so it was how we want it to be seen in the world.
I was really struck by his just orientation towards design and purity and. It was temperamentalness. I don't know if that's a word, but we'll use it. And, just the nature of what motivated him was around beauty and expression and aesthetics and things holding together the way there's, they've never been done before.
Just yeah.
[00:22:24] Wendy Appel: Yeah. He had to be different. He wasn't had to be
[00:22:27] Heather Marasse: the whole PC thing. Right. The apple was completely different
[00:22:32] Wendy Appel: animal. And, and type four is pride themselves in being unique and different. Yes.
[00:22:37] Heather Marasse: Yeah.
[00:22:39] Sherrilynne Starkie: And when you were talking, Wendy, I was actually thinking, I wonder if this is Steve jobs
[00:22:44] Mary Beth Sawicki: that you're talking about.
Okay. What to add to Wendy's point type twos they're seeking appreciation. Threes are seeking admiration. Fours really didn't want to be seen as unique. So for Type Fours some development opportunities for them, a lot of the time is spent feeling and then thinking about what they're feeling and in that loop between thinking and feeling and getting into their bodies is really good for someone who's a type four.
So get moving and get out of the head into the body. And the other thing, this tags back to something Wendy said about how perfectionistic they can be in kind of hard on themselves and living in that. Kind of place of envy or, or longing is to really just acknowledge their gifts and talents and recognize that in themselves versus what they wish.
[00:23:33] Sherrilynne Starkie: Thanks to Mary Beth, Wendy, and Heather for joining us today. Hey, also thank you to all you listeners each week. Our following numbers are growing and we're very thankful for all of you take time to, to listen in. So please see our show notes for links, to some of the, some of these stories and resources that we discussed today.
And please subscribe to our show and share a link. With your friends. Of course, we'd love it. If you could rate us on iTunes or iHeart radio or wherever you get your podcasts, this is the Being Human is Good
[00:24:05] Mary Beth Sawicki: for Business podcast.